Arxiu del diumenge, 25/11/2018

Why would be so extraordinary…

diumenge, 25/11/2018

Monday, 08/15/1994

A discussion with Dr. John Mack, a Harvard University psychiatrist, who studies people who say they have been abducted by aliens.

See transcript below

Charlie Rose: … Harvard University psychiatrist Dr. John Mack is a researcher of a subject that many scientists avoid. He studies people who say they have been kidnapped and sometimes sexually assaulted by aliens from space. A Pulitzer Prize-winning author, Dr. Mack believes that his patients’ experiences are real and are not the result of mental illness or some other identifiable cause. His account of their stories is called Abduction, and he joins me now. And I’m pleased to have him here. Welcome. Dr.

John E. MackGood to be here.

Charlie Rose: Just– you had to know that when you write about this subject you are, you are moving into a sphere of great controversy and great incredulity. No matter what your credentials are and no matter how many Pulitzer Prizes you have and no matter how many degrees you have, it is a subject of enormous fascination, but also among a huge community– section of the community that’s looked at that, incredulity because of the people who say they have had these experiences, no one ever sees any evidence. Tell me how you got involved in this, and why is, why is it of interest to you? Dr.


John E. Mack: Well, in this culture, evidence has come to meansome physical object–

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –that we can measure, touch, take photographs of, and be certain of its pedigree, where it came from. But I suspect in something which is as unacceptable as a reality as this phenomenon, no piece of physical evidence would satisfy anybody. We’d be arguing that whoever found it was hoaxing it or making it up. But evidence can also come from other ways. Evidence can, in my discipline, psychiatry, and I played my strong suit in doing this, is evidence that comes from clinical discrimination. And what I found was–


Charlie Rose: A discriminating look at clinical evidence. Dr.

John E. Mack: Exactly. In other words, you, you look and you listen to what a person has to say about their experience, and you say, ”What could this be?” And nothing in my 40 years of working with people prepared me for this phenomenon. In other words, what people were telling me — with doubt, incredulity themselves. No one has, in spite of what critics say, anything to gain as far as I can tell from this. Nobody wants to be a member of this club. They want to be found wrong–

Charlie Rose: Yes. Dr.

John E. Mack: –the people that have had these experiences. They want to be told this can’t be, and give–

Charlie Rose: They want to be told, ”There’s another explanation for what happened to you, and here it is, and therefore, nothing’s wrong with you, and you’re not part of some–” Dr.

John E. Mack: And these are– exactly. And these are people of sound mind, healthy people by and large. They’ve been traumatized, many of them, by these experiences, but they’re reporting in great detail narratives that are highly similar, which they have not gotten from the media. Most of these details are not in the media. They come forth reluctantly. They know who to talk to and who not to talk to, which is not true of people who have delusions, you know, or who have come up with something which is a reflection of a, of a mental illness. And the only thing that I know that behaves like that is realexperience, where something has actually happened to these people. Then the question is ”What has happened?”

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: And that’s where I’ve taken it.

Charlie Rose: All right, but here are two– a couple of questions. One, did you approach it as a– wanting to believe or as a huge skeptic? Dr.

John E. Mack: I approached it as a huge skeptic. I mean, this is simply not possible. Charlie, when I started this, and I heard about these accounts of people– first of all, I was unfamiliar with the phenomenon until about five years ago. I came at it totally fresh, had no investment in finding this to be true, or not true, didn’t even know about it. When I heard about these accounts, that– there was this man, Bud Hopkins, in New York, who took seriously stories of people that said they’d been taken by alien beings into space. This is ridiculous. It’s utter nonsense. This can’t be. To me, it could not be. This is not something that is possible. There can’t be that kind of intelligence working in our universe. There must be something different to explain this thing. So to me, in spite of what critics say, I, I didn’t come to establish the truth of this, and it was– I was warned not to say you take this seriously, and I was a long time– I was two years before I wrote or spoke publicly about this.


Charlie Rose: All right. Tell me what you experience had been before that, just to give the audience a sense of who you were. I mean, you’d written a book called Cultural Disorder — was that the title? What was the title of the Pulitzer Prize winning book you wrote about, about T.E. Lawrence? Dr.

John E. Mack: I wrote a biography of Lawrence of Arabia, the one that–

Charlie Rose: Right, right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –had so much to do with the current Middle East–

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –situation, and it was called–

Charlie Rose: And the subject of David Lean’s great movie. Dr.

John E. Mack: –A Prince- Yeah. A Prince of Our Disorder. I’ve been interested in questions of human identity. I’m a psychoanalyst. I’ve been, I’ve done a number of clinical studies of human dreams, nightmares. I’ve been interested in adolescent suicide. What makes a teenager decide life is so hopeless they want to end it? I’ve worked a lot in areas of political psychology. What, what drives us to be so destructive, collectively, one to another? Nationalism, ethno-nationalism interests me. So I guess in a way this work– although I didn’t– you know, you don’t calculate this at the time — grew out of this interest in some way, ”Who are we?”


Charlie Rose: Yeah. Dr.

John E Mack: You know, are we these isolated people, tearing at each other, trying to carve up the earth for our own purposes, or do we have some larger expanded human identity? Maybe some place in the depth of my soul there was something that resonated with this, but surely as a factual phenomenon, this was simply not possible when I started this.

Charlie Rose: And when did you turn? When did you begin to say, ”I don’t have– I believe these people.” Dr.

John E. Mack: Or, ”I take them seriously.” Now the word–

Charlie Rose: ”I take them seriously.” Dr.

John E. Mack: –”belief” is full of treachery here because it–

Charlie Rose: I know. That’s why I was using it. Dr.

John E. Mack: –has a sense of, you know, we’re– become part of some belief system or–

Charlie Rose: Well, I know, but I was using it more in terms of, of– Dr.

John E. Mack: Take– yeah.

Charlie Rose: Take it as credible. It could be– What– what’s your term for it? Dr.

John E. Mack: That’s right. It’s just what you said, I mean, that, that it is something that, that is credible, that involves some kind of reality that these people are encountering that, that needs to be taken seriously. And that– I suspected that very soon, but I, I just didn’t have confidence in it. I had to see 30 or 40 of these people, each telling, in different, slight differences, highly detailed narratives, terrifying in many instances, which they themselves doubted, which, when they would hear that another person had had the same experience, they would become very much disturbed because it meant they couldn’t dismiss it as a dream, they couldn’t dismiss it as their private mental illness or fantasy. And that, to a psychiatrist, at least, to this psychiatrist, was very powerful evidence that something extraordinary was occurring here.


Charlie Rose: What kinds of things did they tell you, which is part of the book? Dr.

John E. Mack: Well, the basic story is that a person is in their home or in a car — in the case of one woman, on a snowmobile, or in the case of children in the schoolyard — and a powerful beam of light comes, or they may hear a humming. And they’re frightened. They may be paralyzed. They are moved by some energy. If it’s in a house, they’ll say ”floated down the hall.” They may see these small beings — three feet, three and a half feet tall, a kind of thing that you might think they would be hallucinating. The first response often to critics, ”Well, they’re hallucinating,” but the fact is that thousands of people are having the same images, doubting it, telling it with great emotional power. That’s not the way hallucinations work. It’s not a mass hallucination in the sense that, you know,everybody’s having this experience. There may be a lot of people having the experience, but they’re not in communication with each other. It’s not a contagion, where people are reacting to, to one another. So this powerful energy comes, a blue light, or whatever it is. Then they see one, two, three beings around them, with these huge black eyes, three and a half feet tall, communicate with them telepathically, and then they are moved up through the sky into some sort of an enclosure. They may see a UFO; they may not see the UFO from the outside. And inside, there is a more senior figure, whom they call the Doctor or Leader, and that figure is a little bit taller and seems to be in charge. Inside are all kinds of machinery, like computer consoles, instruments, unlike anything we, we really have exac– nothing quite like what we have on earth.


Charlie Rose: Yeah. Dr.

John E. Mack: The walls are curved. There’s a kind ofatmosphere that’s misty inside often. And then there’s a whole set of procedures that occurs, which are very complex and often what abductees will do when they get together is that they will compare, ”Well, what was the instrument that the little creatures stuck into your abdomen, or in your nose?” And they’ll draw them, and they’ll be– you know, they’ll see that the, that the– or I’ve had a little experiment I’ve done where I have them draw them independently, and they’ve had the same instrument. Again, that’s very strong evidence. John Carpenter, who’s a psychiatric social worker who works with this population in Missouri has a dozen or so cases where he’s kept the people apart, interviewed them, explored their experiences independently, and they have like 30, 40, 50 details of what happened in the ship, it’s identical. And they haven’t communicated with each other. So there’s, there’s all kinds of evidence, but it is evidence of, of narratives, the kind of evidence that’s introduced into a courtroom would, would satisfy a jury and a judge, but in this case, it’s simply cannot be.We’re, we’re– like the approach is often, ”Well, let’s findsomething wrong with the people reporting this, the abductees, or with the investigator,” or whatever, but– because there’s no place for this in our psyches, at least in– for great numbers of people in the culture.


Charlie Rose: Okay, but let me, let me come back to– and notget hung up on, trip over words. Dr.

John E. Mack: Okay.

Charlie Rose: You, you say these stories are credible? Dr.

John E. Mack: Mm-hm.

Charlie Rose: Do you, as an intelligent person who hasinvestigated it, believe — I don’t know of a better word — think it happened to them? Dr.

John E. Mack: Yeah, again, language. We have that problem. Happened. Okay, let, let me just–

Charlie Rose: Do you think it happened? Dr.

John E. Mack: Something, something happened which corresponds to what they’re reporting. In other words, I don’t think they’re talking–

Charlie Rose: Did something happen in their mind, or didsomething happen– Dr.

John E. Mack: Well, it’s– again, it–

Charlie Rose: –in their physical being? Dr.

John E. Mack: This, this has forced me to challenge everycategory I’ve had, like in the mind, inside and outside.

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: For example, sometimes the people are witnessed to be missing. A child, for example, this is my own case experience, goes in to find her mother, during the time the mother’s having an abduction experience and the mother’s not there. The child tells the mother in the morning, ”Mom, I went into your room. You weren’t there.” Two young people, their fathers are desperate in the morning, young teenage girls.They’re gone. They say they– ”Yes, we were right here, sleeping in the, in the den” of, of one of the girls. I’ve interviewed both girls and the fathers. They came back. They were there. They have lesions on their bodies, there are cuts, there are scoop marks, there are– they’re intricate lesions thatdon’t follow anything that could be self-inflicted. One person had– a quadriplegic that I’m working with has this very complex set of ulcers that follow a pattern on his wrists. He can’t have done it to himself. The critics say, ”Well, he did it.These are self-inflicted.” They’re not self-inflicted. But the physical evidence by itself would not stand up. I mean, you couldn’t– because again, it’s, it’s–


Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –not powerful enough; it’s not rich enough. It,it’s the company it keeps; it’s the fact that it occurs inconjunction with these extraordinary accounts, which, in spite of all the criticism that I am maybe taking it to seriously or believing this really happened. There isn’t a single case where anybody has found another explanation of what an individual has reported.


Charlie Rose: Why didn’t you include the personal histories? Dr.

John E. Mack: Well, I included a lot of personal history where I, I took detailed personal history in many cases. In some cases, there is, for example, Scot in the book, we interviewed practically– well, everyone in the family, in the, in the nuclear family: the brother, sister, parents. In other words, as far as we could, we went into every possible person to interview that seemed to bear on the immediate experience. But again, what I was trying to do in this book is to lay out a whole new area that needs investigation — it needs much more study — but to set out what are the basic guidelines; what is the basic structure of this field; and see what, what other people can, can follow up in more detail. I’m– I plan to study or to look at individualcases in much more detail now.

Charlie Rose: You’ve seen how many patients? Dr.

John E. Mack: Of this sort?

Charlie Rose: Yeah. Dr.

John E. Mack: Over 90 now.

Charlie Rose: Over 90. Remarkable similarity in their stories–? Dr.

John E. Mack: Yes.

Charlie Rose: In their sense of the light–? Dr.

John E. Mack: Mm-hm.

Charlie Rose: And being taken away? Dr.

John E. Mack: Mm-hm.

Charlie Rose: How do your colleagues feel about this? Dr.

John E. Mack: Well, my colleagues vary. When they– like, forexample, in the case of Sheila, the psychiatrist who had been working with her, who was a skeptic himself, came in the room during two of my sessions. I, I am reluctant to call them hypnosis because it’s not– with this group, the experiences are so near the surface, if you just listen to them and allow them to relax, the experiences come forward with enormous power. But he, when he was with me, he knew this Sheila very well because he’d worked with her for about seven years, and he said, ”Something like this has happened to her. I can’t– I have no other explanation. I know her well. She’s not making this up. This is truthful. This is what is going on with her,” and, and then he’s–


Charlie Rose: In the end, that seems to be the most– Dr.

John E. Mack: –been– and he’s been working with me. Yeah.

Charlie Rose: In the end, that seems to be the most convincingthing for you and for others is that there’s no other explanation? You can’t find any other way? You can’t find any other way to characterize then to accept? Dr.

John E. Mack: Yeah, I mean, I’ve looked–

Charlie Rose: Is that it? Dr.

John E. Mack: Yes. I mean, I’ve looked for every possible explanation. Then I begin to ask myself ”Why is this so extraordinary in this culture?” In other words, what, what, what is– I mean, for example–


Charlie Rose: Well, I think I can tell you why, I think. I mean, I think the reason is it’s so extraordinary. A culture, for us to be unwilling to buy it, to accept it, to believe in it to, to find it credible. Dr.


John E. Mack: Yeah.

Charlie Rose: I think it is because they– no one– because noone has, A, they make the point about the evidence. No one has seen the evidence. And, and frequently the other kinds of witnesses– I mean, have all these things happened for people to be able to confirm, other people to confirm? Dr.

John E. Mack: But there are– I mean, if you, again, have independent–

Charlie Rose: That they just– let me– Dr.

John E. Mack: –examiners, they find the same thing. I mean–

Charlie Rose: They just– what is it? I mean, I think that it’s, it’s like near-death experiences for people, I think. Dr.

John E. Mack: Yeah, yeah.

Charlie Rose: I mean it– some of the same kinds of– Dr.

John E. Mack: Mm-hm.

Charlie Rose: –incredulity that in fact, ”I died, and I sawheaven,” and, you know. Dr.

John E. Mack: Mm-hm. Mm-hm.

Charlie Rose: I mean I think there is something because you,that you’re– in the end, it’s something you just have to almost take on faith– Dr.

John E. Mack: Mm-hm. But you know, one of the things that’scome to me as I’ve–

Charlie Rose: –or don’t. Dr.

John E. Mack: –been dealing with the, the criticism, I’ve–

Charlie Rose: It’s the rational mind, in America? Dr.

John E. Mack: I, I– ra– so-called rational mind.

Charlie Rose: So-called, all right. Dr.

John E. Mack: You know, I mean they– I came to a point where I began top shift my own thinking and say, ”Well, why is this so extraordinary to people?”

Charlie Rose: Okay. Dr.

John E. Mack: To, to accept that another intelligence — granted it’s taken an odd form: little beings with big–

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –big black eyes, who are sometimes luminous and sometimes less so — entering our worlds, telling us– doing these experiments, telling us that — in vivid terms on televisionmonitors and directly through telepathic communication — that we are causing some kind of ecological catastrophe at ascale that goes beyond the earth itself, that the earth is part of some network, and that is being communicated, and that there are intelligences in the cosmos that are telling us this. Why would this be so extraordinary? I don’t think it would be so extraordinary– and isn’t. We’re beginning to study this in and among various other peoples, who don’t find it that remarkable. It’s that we have come to the place where intelligence is simply a phenomenon of the human brain, that there are, the universe is dev– we’ve devoided it in a sense of other intelligence, so when it shows up in a kind of odd, frightening form, tells us about ourselves in ways we don’t want to hear, the approach is to reject the phenomenon, shoot the messenger. And I, I– there’s something– because the, you know, you asked me this–


Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –I mean the intensity of the, of the wrath in asense that I’ve, I’ve brought down upon myself for suggesting maybe this– it would be better to look at it for what–

Charlie Rose: How was the wrath expressed? Dr.

John E. Mack: Well, it’s expressed in, in attacks that say I have no evidence.

Charlie Rose: That you’ve lost your mind? Dr.

John E. Mack: I’ve lost my–

Charlie Rose: Or even to the standpoint of saying, now do you– you’ve done some experimentation with hallucinogenics,haven’t you? Dr.

John E. Mack: Myself personally, no.

Charlie Rose: Yeah, we– but, but you’ve studied the– Dr.

John E. Mack: No. I, I haven’t.

Charlie Rose: No. Dr.

John E. Mack: I’ve used this, this method which uses breathwork. I’ve been interested in meditation. I’ve been interested in yoga, ways that get into alternative, you know–

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –non-ordinary states where people can access a, another world, and that maybe in some ways, I’ve had somewhat more openness to, to–

Charlie Rose: Right, right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –this kind of phenomenon. But I, I was not ready for a phenomenon that was more than simply psychological, which seems to enter and have physical effects on people. This was something that, that I was totally unprepared for, and yet, it seemed to me that rather than take the phenomena andreduce it to something familiar where it won’t go, just maybe itwould be more creative, more constructive, healthier, if wewould expand our notions of what’s real to include somethingthat differs from what we’ve already believed and known. That might be a healthy thing for us.


Charlie Rose: I, I, I know that– le– This is what I’ve been told about, and I’ll just tell you this story. And, and I come at it with incredulity as well– Dr.

John E. Mack: Sure.

Charlie Rose: –in terms of un–believing– Dr.

John E. Mack: Sure.

Charlie Rose: –these kinds of things as I– you know. And, and people who talk about you, and you’ve been on otherprograms, talk and say, ”He desperately wants to believe this.” That’s okay. People who come with a scientific inquiry alsodesperately want to believe that they’re going to find something. And they also will cite examples of people where– who have fooled you, who have come forward with, with, with a story which wasn’t true, which you seemed to accept. And they say, ”Does that mean that people can get away with telling these stories so that, that you will–” for the lack of a better word– ”buy them?” Dr.


John E. Mack: There’s a woman– that’s all based on a womanthat gave a story to Time magazine that she–

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –worked her way into our group of experiencers, fooled me into thinking that she’d had real–

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –experiences, and then she managed to get asplash on that in Time, which was then picked up. I don’t know about that. The other experiencers that worked with her or knew her — she was part of the group — thinks that she actually is an abductee who had these experiences so that they say that she’s not just– didn’t just lie, which is presumably her principal credential according to herself for–


Charlie Rose: Right, right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –attacking me, but she even lied about lying. In other words, that she was in fact an experiencer who foundanother way for reasons of her own which I– as– since she was someone I worked with in good faith. I’m not going to say what her reasons might be for attacking me. I mean, it certainly got her into Time magazine and, and there was a big splash there. But I, I’m not sure that that person — I mean, I certainlycould be hoaxed. I mean, I’m not saying I couldn’t be, but I’m not sure in that case, it, it really happened. Now as far as my wanting to believe, people often ask me, ”What if you’re wrong?” What if there is some more, quote, ”conventionalexplanation.” But mind you, that explanation will have toaccount for all of these narratives among people not in touch with–


Charlie Rose: Each other. Dr.

John E. Mack: –each other, of sound mind, the tightassociation with UFOs, the fact that the phenomenon occurs in children–

Charlie Rose: Yeah, but there’s a huge amount– Dr.

John E. Mack: –as young as–

Charlie Rose: Let me just throw– answer that. There’s a hugeamount of literature out there. Dr.

John E. Mack: Yeah.

Charlie Rose: Right? I mean, these stories– Dr.

John E. Mack: About–

Charlie Rose: –about these abductees. I mean, you know,novel– a lot of people have written about the experience, andthey all pretty much write about the same– the blinding light, blah, blah, blah and people coming in, three– and they’re all three and a half feet, and they all seem to look similar, to me. Dr.


John E. Mack: Now, Charlie, I didn’t know about this myself five years ago. I had no– there was no stake in having this be so. I am still, when I’m asked, ”What if you’re wrong? What if someone comes up with other, another explanation?” I said, ”Well, that will be interesting.

Charlie Rose: Yeah. Dr.

John E. Mack: I mean–

Charlie Rose: Well, I would assume you as a– Dr.

John E. Mack: You know–

Charlie Rose: –if you believed in scientific inquiry wouldwelcome it. I mean, you, you’d say to it– Dr.

John E. Mack: Of course I’d welcome it.

Charlie Rose: ”Listen, prove me wrong here.” Dr.

John E. Mack: Prove me wrong. Come up with some other–

Charlie Rose: ”If you can show me there’s a better way–” Dr.

John E. Mack: –some other, some other plausible explanation.

Charlie Rose: ”But all I have now is that I’m buying these stories these people have told me, and, and that I come to this with some credentials–” Dr.

John E. Mack: But that’s what we–

Charlie Rose: ”–that others might not have.” Dr.

John E. Mack: But we do that all the time. That’s, that’s thefundamental evidence in psychiatry. That’s what Freud did,that’s what Jung did, that’s what Erikson did. ”Buying stories?”I don’t know, but we make our– as careful assessment as we can of what somebody is telling us. Is this–


Charlie Rose: Yeah. Dr.

John E. Mack: –a distortion? Is this coming from someplace else? Are they telling us– are they traumatized in some other way and they’re blaming it on aliens? No case of abduction has turned out, in my experience with my cases and other people’s cases, to be something else: sexual abuse or some other kind of–


Charlie Rose: None? Repressed memory? Nothing? Dr.

John E. Mack: Not, not, not one has been shown to be something else.

Charlie Rose: Yeah. How important was hypnosis? Dr.

John E. Mack: It’s important, but again, a very basic pointwhich is often, ”Well, hypnosis gives you false stories.” Thirtypercent of the material that we get comes before there’s anykind of relaxation response or anything that gets called hypnosis. People remember the stories; they remember being taken into the ships; there’s a great deal, however, that they feel they’re not in touch with that they’re waiting to be able to talk with somebody about. And if you relax them– you don’t even have to hypnotize them. If they just relax, this material pours forward with great intensity, terror often, and eventually they come, if you work with them over time, they come to terms with it, and they grow. There’s a spiritual growth that goes on here. They become aware that we are connected beyond, simply the human relationships with other intelligences, and which, of course, every other people besides us has known from the beginning of time, but for us, who have lost those senses as Rilke said– the poet, Rilke said — by which we can know the spirit, well, those senses have atrophied in, in our time. This may be some way in which we’re reopening to a world that is filled with, with consciousness, with life, with, with some kind of energies and, and intelligence.


Charlie Rose: Let me repeat this. John Mack is an M.D. He is professor of psychiatry at the Cambridge Hospital, at theHarvard Medical School, and a founding director for the Centerfor Psychology and Social Change, and his earlier booksincluded the 1975 Pulitzer Prize-winning A Prince of OurDisorder, a biography of T.E. Lawrence, who as all of you know, was Lawrence of Arabia. I think it is those credentials that, that have added something to this. I mean, you come to the table with a different kind of credentials than, and if someone as smart as you are with your credentials– it adds something tothe debate. Dr.


John E. Mack: That may get me a hearing, but it–

Charlie Rose: Yeah, doesn’t get– Dr.

John E. Mack: –but it doesn’t get you much further than thatbecause at some point I have to say, ”Okay–”

Charlie Rose: Yeah. Dr.

John E. Mack: ”study this phenomenon. Don’t marginalize it.Don’t push it off onto the tabloids. It’s something that could be really important for us, for this culture, for humanity. Look at it with me, study it. Let’s find out what it’s about. Let’s do careful studies of every aspect of this.” That’s what I would like to see.


Charlie Rose: I’ve got to go, but what’s the next step for you? I mean, let’s assume you are, again, I’m hooked on language.Let’s assume you’re hooked by this, that this– I mean, you are in this place, you are in this area, whether you like it or not now. Dr.

John E. Mack: I’d like to pull a few hooks out.


Charlie Rose: You’re hooked. Yeah, I know you would, but theyare hooked to you, and, and for better or worse, and some want to rip you apart, and some want to talk about– Dr.

John E. Mack: Right.

Charlie Rose: I mean, I’ve heard, people have said to me, ”Look, there’s–” you know, ”you’ve got to think about, look at the methodology–” and, I don’t know, ”proof of the methodology.” Dr.

John E. Mack: Right, right, right, right.

Charlie Rose: And, ”I think this guy’s using hallucinogens.” you know, drugs” or whatever they say. Dr.

John E. Mack: Yeah, anything, anything.

Charlie Rose: I mean, ”He’s–” whatever they say, ”He’s

Lsd: Let’s kill, let’s kill the messenger.

Charlie Rose: Yeah. Well they do say that. Dr.

John E. Mack: Let’s not look at what’s going on here.

Charlie Rose: Well, they do say, ”We don’t believe him because of this, and we believe he wants it to happen,” and all that.You’ve heard all that. That’s not new. Dr.

John E. Mack: They even make up things like some of thosethings you mentioned about my background–

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.

John E. Mack: –they even make up to make me wrong.

Charlie Rose: That’s why I asked, rather than, than positing as– Dr.

John E. Mack: Right.

Charlie Rose: That’s why I asked. Dr.

John E. Mack: Right.

Charlie Rose: But at the same time, what– the last question — what’s next? Where do you go? What do you do? How do you, if you believe in this as you do, and believe– forget the word for a second, you accept it as credible, accept it as credible– Dr.

John E. Mack: Okay.

Charlie Rose: What do you do next? Dr.

John E. Mack: Well, I think we’ve touched on it. We– you getpeople to look at it with me. You get people who are not hooked, who are responsible clinicians to look at these cases with me, which we’re beginning to do. You look at individuals in greater depth to see, well, could there be some–

Charlie Rose: Right. Dr.


John E. Mack: –dynamic explanation in them as individuals.We’re doing a study like that at the program at, at CambridgeHospital, that I’m connected with. You do rigorous psychological testing on them. Mind you, whatever the theory is, it has to take into account also the physical findings, the tight association with UFOs, the fact the phenomenon occurs in children under three years old. You look at it in other countries, which we’re doing, in indigenous cultures. How do they see the phenomenon? We met with a Cherokee medicine woman and they– she says, oh, they’ve been in touch with these beings for a long time and– but they don’t like to talk about it because there’s enough– people have enough trouble being Native Americans to have to bring this kind of wrath upon themselves. But you, you ask people who are competent clinically, scientifically, to look at the phenomenon with you and, and let’s explore it together. A number of scientists have been interested in doing this. Philosophers are– I do get a lot of support from philosophers. There’s a–


Charlie Rose: Who’s the most credible? Who, who would be thebest name that’s supportive, do you think? Dr.

John E. Mack: Well, Rudolph Schild, who’s an internationallyrenowned physicist at the Harvard Astrophysics Lab thinksthat work like this, and you mentioned near death experiences, Ken Ring’s work will tell us more about the cosmos than what we’re going to learn looking through telescopes. Professor of philosophy Michael Zimmerman–

Charlie Rose: Yeah. Dr.

John E. Mack: –at– was former chairman at Tulane University,says this is something that is of extraordinary importance forphilosophy, for humankind, and he’s been interested, again, inthe questions you and I have been talking about about what isit about a world view, our world view, which makes thisimpossible that people cling to so desperately when somethingnew comes along?


Charlie Rose: I know people that will say about somehowintelligent life on other planets, they’ll say it’s– it is, would be ridiculous for us to assume that we are so smart, that we are the– that our– here on this planet, we are the only people who somehow have advanced to the level– Dr.

John E. Mack: Oh, I believe–

Charlie Rose: –that we have advanced to, and when you look atwhat’s happening in places like Rwanda, you wonder how far we’ve advanced. Dr.

John E. Mack: Yeah.

Charlie Rose: Anyway. I’m out of time. Human encounters with aliens, the book, Abduction. Dr. John Mack from Harvard University. Tomorrow night, Oliver Stone and Tom Arnold.


The aim of this blog is to present to the public a ‘non-personal’ -and nonetheless suggestive- information that has already been released.